It Wasn't What They Said it Was....Lots of Humor Here!!

What makes people that are selling something, not tell the whole truth and nothing but the truth???? I'm confused. (~smiling)

On the phone this morning the seller said it was a 1984, the date wasn't listed on the ad. I ran a NADA to get some idea of the value plus looked at other rigs for sale from 1985-1990 Holiday Ramblers. Once again it was way under priced based on NADA for a 1984 Holiday Rambler Imperial. As the ad said he took it down to TN just last weekend. I looked up that trip on google maps and found it to be a 750 mile round trip. So I felt pretty good about the rig I was going to go look at.

Back in the years 2002-2008, I was buying VW Buses from the years 1961-1967, with the 67's being the last year of the split front window. I learned early from buying them online, always out of state, that most likely they will not look as good as the pictures on the sales ad. That's fine, I have no problem with that. This rig didn't either.

So last night a follower let me know there was another Holiday Rambler for sale in Indianapolis which is only a 1-1/2 hour drive from my house. The photos looked fantastic. The ad had a lot of detail except one ... what year was it? I was so excited about the possibilities, I called him at 8am, hoping it was still available. It was. Arrangements were made to meet today at 1pm to take a look at it. The seller was recovering from knee replacement, so he stayed inside the house while I went over the rig, inspecting it. I was there a total of 2 hours looking at everything and starting it. The rig was plugged into house power.

I started with the outside, yes it wasn't bright and shiny like the pictures, that middle striping was pealing but that didn't bother me. Over all outside was good, small dent in rear passenger side corner. Tow bar and 7-pin plug was good but looked like it wasn't used recently. That was kind of confusing because he kept telling me that he tows a trailer with his motorcycles when he travels. I climb up on top, caulking was old but that wasn't a big deal, I could re-caulk myself. Roof looked in great shape.

I went though all of the bay doors, everything was in good shape, no water damage, no rotting inside, original bay material was still in good shape. The two windows on the drivers side had both window awnings that were in great shape. On the drivers side, the 15 ft awning even included the correct piece in the middle that was attached to the rig as designed. The steps came out when the door opened just like the ad said ... even the doorbell worked. The tires are an off brand name but all are new like the ad said. As I step inside to inspect I am feeling really good so far about this rig. For a 1984 it's in great shape.

The inside was even better. No water stains anywhere, inside cabinets, lower cabinets, under sinks. No mouse traps were set but at the same time they were using this rig is what I am told and had just bought a huge 5th wheel. Everything from the driver's cab to the back bedroom was fantastic. All the closets were still in the original design, no modifications. The electrical outlets worked for the tv, all the lights worked ... every one. The oven and microwave were in new condition and as advertised the refrigerator and freezer were a new stainless steel unit....both were working.

I turned on the water pump and hot water heater, then went to look at other things while the water heater warmed up. I kept listening for the water pump to kick on but it never did after 30 minutes. I had pulled off the center console of the engine bay between the two front seats. Still after a while I never heard the water pump kick on.  Of course what might explain that, while looking under the rear bed at the water tank valves and for water damage, I actually moved the tank with my hand a little and looked closer .. the fresh water tank looked empty. Hmmmm, thought they used it last weekend on a trip??

Still the inside was FANTASTIC!!  At this point of the inspection I am thinking this rig is soon to be mine. In one of the cabinets I find the large notebook with the original owners manual just like the CL ad showed in the photo ...with one problem. He told me this was a 1984 and all the manuals say 1982. Then I find and take a picture of a manufacturer type title with the VIN and year from the factory ... 1982.  So it's not a 1984 like he said on the phone and there is no year listed on his CL ad.

What do you think about that?  Make me wonder if this is common or not.

While inspecting the inside the rig, two other people drove up and hung out for a bit by the rv. I asked if they were here to see the rv and both gave different answers..."No, I'm here to see the Honda Accord that's for sale, are you ....?" and "No, I'm here to see the truck that is for sale"  I'm looking around, there a huge 5th wheel, a truck, an Accord his daughter drove up in, two cars parked behind mine. I'm wondering at this time what this guy does. I had the wrong impression based on the phone call. Based on the phone conversation I'm picturing a family using the RV I'm wanting to buy, to travel in every summer, they have had it forever and they just moved up to a 5er and a new truck...a new truck is nowhere to be found. Now I'm wondering about this phone conversation and what is going on here.

All that doesn't matter ... the rig looks great, the generator looks great ... I'm feeling pretty good at this time. As we agreed, with the seller recouping from knee replacement, his 2nd in 7 months, I was to come to the house to get him when I had questions. Well I needed the keys to start it up and test drive it. The plate was current. While inside when I pushed the buttons for the pump and water heater, it was the same screen showing they were on as the levels of the different tanks, gas etc. Well nothing showed up for the tank levels nor the gas level. The propane tank showed full on the gage outside.

Before I go back out to start the rig we begin talking about all the trips he has been on but he mentions this "other 30' Class A toyhauler I had" and "the 5er".  No mention of the one rig I'm looking at as being the rig of choice for summer camping trips. A small flag goes up in my head....lol. I also mentioned to him that I wasn't sure if there was any water in the fresh water tank to test the faucets, water heater and water pump. "Oh no, there's no water ... the rv is still winterized, in fact I have no idea when the oil was even changed last" I replied that I had checked the oil on the dipstick and it look like it had just been changed.

The man checking out the Honda stops us to ask if there is a license plate he can use to test drive the car. The seller says "I have dealer plates you can use, I'M AN RV DEALER" .... I hold back from laughing but I'm thinking to myself "what is going on here???"  LOL....Unbelievable, you cannot make this stuff up!!!  LOL On the inside my laughter is out of control....I am even laughing again as I type this.

I get the keys...I go back out and pull off the center console again so I can see and hear what this engine does. In my first inspection there was heavy oil residue around the valve covers....I'm thinking at the time that's ok, it's easy to get to and I can replace those cover gaskets myself. Well I turn they and it's cranking but not starting. The seller who had walked out to where I was because a truck had arrived to deliver another car with auction markings on it....so I figured it was another car to sell, since he did say he was an RV DEALER....I mean, come on, what did you expect??  lol

He tells me it might take a few times because its a carburetor. I'm old enough to know about those so I keep pumping the gas and finally get it to kick over. Now remember before I tell you what happened...the seller told me in person and on the ad they had taken this rv on 750 mile round trip just LAST WEEKEND!  Well when the engine turns over, there is the highest shrill sound combined with a loud LOUD sound as if the muffler was not attached to the exhaust manifold. I had to cover my ears, it was that loud and high pitched....sounded like a belt or something that turns a belt....???

It finally stops...and the engine is idling with that loud no muffler sound. I checked under the rig when I was outside and would say the mufflers were more to being new than rusted and old...they were shiny silver.  I also hear a loud tapping sound of the valves....a sound I remember with untuned vw engines....the loud tapping sound was only on the right side, not the left. I turned on my iPhone and made a video so I could record the sound. But the whole sound of the engine on the passenger side did not sound normal at all ... not what a healthy engine would sound like.

I saw no blackened area around the headers like was suggested a few days ago. All I saw in question visually with the engine was the leaking valve covers...and those were nothing more than gasket replacement I think. So I rev the engine....the loud exhaust sound gets louder, small race car backfire....NO...I'm not making this stuff up. My Coachmen Class C was quiet, very quit at idle. Even the HR I passed on was sounding better than this one. My impression of the engine....I would be afraid to drive this out of his driveway....no test drive, I had heard enough. But they did take this on a 750 mile trip just last weekend!!

So I go back inside to let him know that I had made a recording of the engine sound I couldn't identify and was going to let my mechanic listen to it and I would get back with him. I told him I liked everything else but I want to check the engine out first. He replied "that is a great engine, like I said we took it down to TN just last weekend".

So I left, did not give him any money for a deposit and returned on my 1-1/2 hour drive which gave me time to think.

I will not be buying that rig.

A Friday Morning Update

Thanks for all the comments last night, they were  a big help. Some of the comments confirmed my thoughts and doubts, while other comments gave me new things to look at it or think about. I have notified the seller that I will not move forward with the deal.

The good news is a follower of this blog told me about another Holiday Rambler nearby. I called that seller this morning 8am local time. I am the first caller and also will be the first person to see that rig today. He not only has the original owner manual but ALL service/maintenance receipts for the life of the rig. From the photos on the ad, it looks like it is in better shape than the one I just looked at.

The reason for him selling this Holiday Rambler that I am going to see, he just bought a new truck and a 5th wheel to continue his RV traveling.

I think I will have some great news later today.

I Need Some Help From the Expert Readers

Thanks for all the comments, they were helpful and very very informative. This is the information I was looking for. Some of them confirmed my thoughts and others were new things to consider.

The skies cleared this afternoon and there was going to be some good weather before it starts raining again on Friday. So after checking the weather radar, I texted the seller asking if I could come back over and take a closer look at the rig since the skies were bright an sunny. I was there within an hour.

I was able to crawl under the rig with my small bright flashlight and check the transmission, back side of wheels, checked for any kind so leaks, etc. The seller showed up from his job about the same time I did. I was able to open both panels in front and spend more time looking at the front part of the engine, hoses, radiator and fluids.

I was also able to go back inside and take a closer look. I also asked him to explain to me where the tanks were, how to winterize if needed. I rechecked places I had checked before for any kind of signs of water stains.

I also asked some repeat questions and received different answers from Tuesday but a more clearer picture about the history of the rig.

What I need to know is, should it be a deal breaker that this rig has been parked and unused for 4 years, no trips, no short trips, not driven anywhere, not even to put gas in the tanks...or from new things I found in today's inspection??

What I found with my 2nd inspection that was more in depth due to the clear weather is as follows:

1.  He used the floor jack that was sitting in front of the rig to raise the rig and change the front tires himself. Both were new Bridgestones.

2.  He said he also changed the 6 rear tires with Michelins where the tread was ok but not new like the front tires. I noticed the side walls showed cracking as in old but couldn't find the 4 digits to tell me how old the tires were. There was enough sidewall cracking that I would install new tires before heading on a 8 month journey.

3.  I asked him like I did Tuesday if he had the rig serviced at the local RV dealer/service. Today he said he never did, that he did all the servicing himself, Tuesday he said they had done some. When I called them on Wednesday to check, they knew him by name but had never worked on his RV.

4. The bottom black color all the way around was stained or delaminated with white stains but had never been driven in the winter on salty roads. I opened every bay, one thing I could not do during the rain storms. EVERY bin door on the back side was rotten. He suggested ways of repairing it, like drilling out the rivets and inserting new 3/4" wood. Still literally every bin door was water damaged on the inside. Each bin had looked like it had not been used in a long time, evidenced by dirt and a lot mice droppings and nests.

5. The generator looked clean, oil level was good and had a new filter but had only a few hours over 100. He said "I think it runs or it should run once there is enough gas in the tank but I ever used it. I always hooked up to campground power when I used it" Later I can explained but he used it the first 6 years of owning it for 10.

6.  The large bin included the water hoses, power cord, a bag of something, a small grill. I would replace everything I saw with new units.

7.  The awning and rails looked fairly new but he said they were changed out before he bought it from his dad.

8.  After going inside he lifted one of the beds to show me the valves of the water system and how to winterize. That area and plumbing looked good as new. I checked again under all the windows to check for water stains, there were none.

9. Lifted the stove unit below the burners and found evidence of a lot of mice traffic.

Things I found today that I didn't see Tuesday did make me feel less confident in my previous decision. The interior was nice but wasn't as impressive as I has seen with the lights on. All the plumbing under the sinks look in good shape with no signs of water damage.

So I am asking the readers with experience, is what I found today enough to change my decision. Are there future problems lurking with the rig sitting for 4 years and never used. From the title he showed me, it is a 1987, he bought it in 2004 so he has owned it 10 years and used it the first 6 years of ownership.

The ground was too saturated today to back it out for a test drive. He also mentioned Sunday as a pickup day not Saturday as originally planned.

Thanks for your help. I will be by the computer most of the night to answer any questions by email or reply to comments.

Thanks

Two Months of Changes and Ideas

It's another cold rainy day here in the tropics of Southern Indiana. It looks like another session of rain is about 2 hours west of me. So with nothing else to do, I've been looking through notes, old emails, forums, answering emails and making blog comment replies. Remember it's the rain that is holding up the test drive for the rig I left a deposit on. He has it parked on a concrete slab under a portable garage but needs to back it out onto a grassy wet area before we can turn right and take it down the driveway to the country roads. He offered to drive the 4 miles of curvy, narrow, hilly country road until we got to the highway and I will probably take his offer.

Anyway I was flipping through my notes and it was only 10 or 11 short days ago I was all set on full-timing in a truck camper. I had even contacted a couple of people, both were out west. After a discussion with a full-timer about all of the different options, he brought up some very valid points on different options that needed to be thought about if full-timing was ever in my plans. When I did that self analyzing I was able to sort between "want" and "needs". After that it was pretty obvious that the truck camper was not going to work.

I'll go through each option to explain why I did or did not choose that particular rig. Still as usual a two month period brings a lot of changes in my thought process.

Truck Camper
Those crazy boondocking pictures do it. They make you think you can do things that are not possible with a fairly large bloodhound and two short legged bassets, none of the three are great "problem solvers" but their intentions are good. I have the truck where I could slide on a camper and have all I would need if it were just me. A PahaQua 8x10 tent would also be used for a little added outdoor shelter. You could go anywhere and camp where few others could go ... that's the magnetic pull I felt. I realized not only I, but the hounds needed somewhere to stretch out, to be able to move around on those days where the rain is pouring or the wind is howling, even if an unexpected snowfall shows up.

So, even it if was very very tempting and the two campers I was looking at were fantastic I had to pass. Not enough room and when I thought about it, in the three years of reading blogs I had never heard of anyone full-timing in a truck camper.

Fiberglass Trailers
Almost bought a Casita locally last year, and also a Lil Snoozy last September but realized tanks sizes would never work for boondocking. While spending hours inside the Casita talking to the seller it seemed too small for two adults let alone 3 dogs. I would have gone insane eventually, I think. Plus at the time a follower that was living in a Casita with numerous dogs and cats sent me an email in capital letters shouting DON'T BUY A CASITA. That made the decision pretty easy. Another case of "want" verses "need".

Trailers 18'-24'
Just last week I was choosing between two trailers, the Nash 18L and the Starcraft Launch 17FB. Both had similar floorplans, both has similar options but the Starcraft fresh water, gray and black tanks were just too small to boondock for any length of time. The plumbing part of camping is rarely talked about on blogs but if it isn't going into the black tank ... where else is it going?

One thing said recently by someone with experience turned my thinking process in a different direction. What happens when you either pull over to rest or to set up camp, it's bad weather and your home is sitting outside your truck five to ten feet away from you? You are either staying in the truck until the bad weather dies down or you are sprinting (hopefully not in the dark) from the truck to the trailer. Well I know for a fact my 3 hounds are going to say 'no...but hell no'....not doing it. The bloodhound wouldn't care about the weather but the bassets get no further than under the house overhang in bad weather when they have to go out, then a quick sprint back inside the house.  So I could see myself in the trailer and the hounds in the backseat of the truck, pouring rain ... not a good option.

Also, the hitching and unhitching every time you want to head for a new camp. Would that get old? Probably doesn't take a lot of time once you get use to it. I've been told by trailer full-timers it does get old. I will see if that makes a difference towing a toad.

In the past I also asked a few close friends that are on the road "If money was no option, what would you buy". In every case it was a self-contained rig where everything from driving to living was all in one spot. That led me to a Class C last September.

Class C
The Class C Coachmen I bought last fall was in great shape, had a nice new TempurPedic Mattress, new Bilstein Shocks, new Fantastic fan and a new larger backup camera. I thought that was the perfect vehicle. It was 26' long, 22' from the back of the front seats to the back wall, both microwave/convection oven looked like they had never been used ... every thing was good. That is until I went to register it and found out it was not a 2004 as advertised but a 2003. What was a good deal sales price was turned into a I paid too much for a 2003. I did ask when I was inspecting and saw the 2003 label inside the cabinet, but the seller said that was the year of the frame. I knew from reading it was possible to have a frame a year older than the rig. So I believed him. I did match the VIN on the registration to the VIN by the front window but at the time didn't know the 10th digit would tell me the frame age.

So the rig and I were kind of off to a bad start vibe wise. I wasn't happy about the mistake. I had paid more than what I should have. The following weekend when I decided to do a full in depth inspection crawling on my back looking at every inch of the rig underneath, is where I found oil lines dripping. You can read about the repair on the right side of this blog, as it is one of my blogs most popular posts. So that was strike two.

The longer I would sit in the rig with the hounds during the winter while it was winterized, the smaller the living area looked. Sadie the bloodhound claimed the couch the first day, Heidi the younger basset liked under the dining table next to my feet and Winston the older basset liked between the front seats or in the passenger seat. That Coachmen probably would have worked, it drove great, had 81,000 miles  but very few of those miles were the past 5 years. After the flat tire while sitting for the winter, I began to have my doubts that the rig was "meant for me" ... I kept thinking Murphy's Law had taken residence. I found out it was not the tire but the extended tire valve that was bad. Still, I lost confidence in the rig and had not even hit the road yet. So I sold it, bought a truck large enough to tow more than 4,500 lbs and decided I needed a trailer.

Class A
I looked at these a long time ago but they always seemed too big and too expensive. The repair cost scared me and in a way still does a little. One thing it had though was room, even without slide outs. A few people that travel with large dogs always suggested a Class A 30'-34' long, preferably a slide out. Still the times I sat in them, I didn't see me buying one. The used ones all smelled and showed wear and tear at the RV dealers I visited. The one I looked at locally and almost bought in March 2013 was a great 32' with a slide out but had spent most of it's life sitting with only 8,300 total miles if I remember right and a generator that didn't have 100 hours on it. I passed on it.

The ones I wanted were more than I wanted to pay. I felt the fastest  and best financial way to get on the road was a truck/trailer combo so that was what I was focused on most of the time. I never considered an 'old' Class A. Everyone said if you buy anything old be ready to be handy because there will always be something to fix. I remember that and stayed away from "vintage" anything. With my H3 Hummer I couldn't tow more than a small fiberglass trailer. Until I bought the Chevy truck that could tow 10,000 lbs, my trailer options were limited.

Yet, when I took my 586 mile round trip to Arkansas last September, a large majority motorhomes on the freeway were all towing a toad but were all "older" Class C's or A's. A few 5er's were on that freeway but I didn't see any of the older RVs on the side of the road with mechanical problems. The more forums I read or blogs from the left side list, I found that no matter what you lived in or drove ... there were repairs. New ones, old ones .. it is what it is. So basically what do you want to spend your money on when it comes time you need to fix something. Still I was looking only at trailers, then I started looking at used trailers that were nice, maybe even built a little better than the newer ones. So it even shocked me when I realized I liked that 1987 Holiday Rambler I saw on Craig's List just 50 miles away, this past week.

1987 Holiday Rambler
When I saw the photos, I knew it had just been washed because of the 5gal bucket in the photo and the shined wheel covers. The rig looked in great shape on the outside. I could tell it had been taken care of from comparing it to what I had seen at different RV lots I visited. I thought it was strange the ad would only have 5 exterior photos and no interior ... it must be trashed was my first thought. So I emailed the seller asking for interior photos. Within the next few hours of going back and looking at the exterior photos form the ad,I had the feeling described on this blog a few days ago. My interest was peaked enough that I told the seller to forget about taking the interior photos that I would be over on Tuesday to look at it. While looking at it I realized when they placed the ad they were in the process of cleaning it and de-winterizing it and wasn't expecting a visitor just a week after the ad was placed. It was clean inside as the pictures showed on my blog but they were in the clean up process.

It was storming with hard rain the night I looked at it, so I couldn't look as much as I wanted in the portable garage. Rain was blowing on us at times. With my bright small LED flashlight I could see enough and see quite well this rig had been taken care of. I slide my fingers between the tire tread, they felt like new. Glancing down the sides shows smooth surfaces with zero dents. The roof was in great shape with fresh caulking around the vents but was dirty from sitting inside. As soon as I stepped inside I knew this was the one or I hoped it was because it was better than I had expected, was the right color of furniture but it had not been test driven yet. The engine at idle sounded great, the oil on the dipstick was new, spark plug wires were new but it didn't have enough gas to fire off the generator. It was too wet to back out and take it for a drive, with a chance of getting it stuck in the saturated lawn.

All the solid oak cabinets were in mint condition and close straight and flush, no warping. No water stains anywhere, inside the open cabinets, under the sinks, below the windows, up along the ceiling ... the ceiling was in perfect shape. The carpets were in great shape even though they might come out later. I was impressed with the interior because it was in better shape than I had expected and what I had sat in at different RV dealers these past two years. There were no smells of any kind, nothing to hide smells, it just smelled clean.

I knew the CL ad was only 6 days old when I saw it. I also knew based on the condition of this rig it would not last long at the suggested price. It was below NADA and what comparable rigs were priced online. The seller claimed he did not know what it was worth, so I am not sure how the sales price was decided. My paranoid analytical brain gets in the way sometimes, so I let that low price pass. He was the 2nd owner and had bought it from his dad 8 years ago. The sellers family had rv'd every summer while growing up, making multiple cross country trips. It had not only been used on a regular basis but had been taken care of. One thing that did bother me, the tags showed 2010 so that means it has been sitting for 3-4 years. Yet, he had driven it recently to install new tires, the oil on the dipstick was new and had just de-winterized it. Everything worked as it needed to except the generator would not start even though it tried due to not having enough fuel in the gas tank.

As I looked around the two open garages I could tell the seller took good care of everything. His rebuilt 67 Camero was spotless as well as his Harley. The house garage was full of cars and clean. So I could tell the wheel covers on this rig were not just clean to sell it, they were clean and shiny because that was just the way the seller was.

You may not use all of them but a Class A gives you options that other trailers or Class C's that I was looking at don't. More storage, more room for the hounds and I to co-exist, enough room for a tv if needed and room for a desk to hold my iMac and 2nd monitor if I decide to go that way. Yes mpg is low, probably between 5-8mpg but a Class C towing a toad or a truck towing a trailer isn't going to do much better. I guess those would get 8-10 mpg, so a slight difference. In all my estimates I had always used $4/gal for gas and 5mpg for any rig. I don't plan on driving every two weeks, I plan to stay months at a time if I like the location and am able to stay that long. Racing from campground to campground will not be in my itinerary.

I can still boondock like Paul & Nina or Al & Kelly do with their Class A's. I will tow something, just not sure yet. Tom kind of liked the idea of a small covered cargo trailer with the Mini Cooper inside.

Since I knew the seller had a lot of calls about this rig and had people coming this weekend to look at it, I decided since it was in great shape, sounded good at idling speed and was priced right, that I would leave a deposit to prevent it being sold before I could make it back for the weekend.

I think we are close to finally hitting the road! The test drive this weekend will determine that.